Show Notes

Matt (00:05):

Hey, welcome to the show, Rob!

Rob (00:15):

Nice to meet you and nice to see you.

Matt (00:17):

Yeah, I’m glad you could join me today. I’ve heard a lot about what you guys are doing there, Spanier group, and I thought it’d be interesting to kind of dig into that a little bit and kind of unravel what you guys are working on. So to begin, I want to get a little bit more about your background in real estate, where it kind of all began the Genesis of Rob and real estate, and then we’ll kind of carry it through to where you’re at Spanier.

Rob (00:47):

Sure. Sounds good. And thank you for having me on the show. Really appreciate the opportunity to just sort of connect and chat a bit. So my background is not a traditional one. I went to school in Canada and studied McGill University and had this incredible opportunity to join a company called Intrawest corporation Intrawest resorts, which in the mid to late nineties was the preeminent resort developer that was doing some incredible stuff around the world, Canada, the United States, Europe, and the Caribbean. And when I joined them at the ripe age of 22, I knew very little about real estate, much less so about commercial real estate and even less so about retail. But I grew up in Montreal and Montreal is probably one of the greatest cities in the world that has its foundations and its bones that are, that come from the European design of cities.

Rob (01:41):

And so everything is so close. So where I grew up in the neighborhood of NDG, at the corner of my street was the fire station and the bakery and the fruit store and the bank, and then the larger grocery store and the tailor and all of those services. And so growing up for me, I lived in a world of mixed-use. And then when I got on the bus and wanted to head downtown, it was 10 minutes to the Metro. And then 15 minutes later, you were right in the center of the city. And so I really grew up in a, in a world of a mix of uses that were highly connected and very dense and urban. But didn’t feel like you were living in a metropolis. It was actually really inspiring. And so Intrawest came along and I had the opportunity and the privilege to learn from some of the greatest people at that time that were reinvigorated, envisioning destinations and resorts and towns.

Rob (02:34):

And I learned from some of the greatest planners, architects, designers, and developers on what really made a great place and spent the first part of my career, right out of university working there and learning there, not just in Canada, but in the United States and in Europe and had the privilege of living in a whole bunch of different, cool places. And that really is what sort of caught my attention. And I think created the bug for me on how do I actually take that, that opportunity and share it with the world of how to start a create great places.

Matt (03:06):

Wow. And so it was basically where you basically kind of creating kind of curating spaces for these different destinations as far as like bringing in certain retailers and certain amenities for these destinations. What did that look like?

Rob (03:33):

Sure. So I joined Intrawest, in 1999, and at that time they hit amassed all of these resorts and realized that the village and the heart was the true creation of a place that was going to unlock tremendous value to get people to come and ski, to golf, to visit the ocean but more importantly, to buy real estate. And I was part of a division that was actually called the village people, which is a funny name and everyone loves that name, but our job and our opportunity was to go create the retail mix of uses for every resort village. So handpicking, curating, programming, master planning, financial engineering, every village to have that suite in that mix of uses for that place. So the village of Baytown Warf, Sandestin golf, and beach resort in the panhandle of Florida was completely different than copper mountain in Colorado, which was completely different from blue mountain in Ontario.

Rob (04:30):

And then, my hometown of Montreal, which was regarded as one of the greatest Northeastern ski destinations for so many years running was its own Quebec European, a resort village in the Northeast. And so understanding the essence of place and how that place came together, both physically and programmatically was key. And then once we figured that plan out and that master plan out for the whole project, it was then honing right in on those uses and that mix of uses. And what was the right mix? What was the right type of uses and users, and probably most importantly, and had the greatest impression in my life was that the curation of uses was not about the big nationals. It was about the independent non-nationals those best in class. Cause I love to call them the mom and pops and the right mix of those uses with some larger users and uses.

Rob (05:23):

And sometimes those players that had to be more national nature could actually unlock the value in the creation of place. So as an example, in Quebec and Ontario in Canada, not everybody can sell alcohol, but when you go to the resort and you may want to have a beer or a bottle of wine, well, those are controlled by the government. And so bringing in that larger user to those types of projects allowed for the right use, but the user was a national user, and the independent user couldn’t actually deliver that service. So it was about that combination of big and small, short and tall, that really makes for a great place.

Matt (06:01):

Right. And keeping your ideal, your ideal person, your ideal avatar for that space, creating what they would be looking for essentially in that space.

Rob (06:16):

Yeah. The way, the way I look at it is thinking about a museum. And when you go to a museum, there are always different artists that are showcased, and the term curate, or really comes from a museum and curating the right type of what would be on display and what was happening at that given time. I really believe that not enough people think about retail and those ground floor uses in enough in that same way because people spend so much time in real estate development, thinking about the development, thinking about the value proposition, creating that amenity both for cities, towns, and from a profitability perspective, but then you step back and say, wow, how much effort did you really take to think about where people are truly using the space and how they’re using the space? , there are world-class landscape architects that think about parks.

Rob (07:06):

There are world-class developers that build infrastructure and projects, how many people are truly thinking about the ground floor, 50 feet up. And that’s the world that I entered into and I’ve sort of made it my life’s mission and my career to really think about that. Those places, not just from a vision perspective, but from an implementation perspective, can these places get built? Are they financially viable? Can they drive to the overall profitability of a project and also drive to the experience of a project? Because if you’re going to go choose to live in one of these projects, whether you’re in a townhouse, a condominium, single-family home, what is the ground floor experience like in your neighborhood, in your community, in that environment? And what value is that adding to your quality of life?

Matt (07:55):

Wow, there’s a lot in that and I want to come back to all this, but I wanted to get a little bit more of your history now kind of from that initial foray into where you’re at Spanier how much time lapsed in between there. And what did that look like? Did you gain some more experiences that kind of have guided you into this role at Spanier and then after that let’s just kind of unpack, Spanier group and what you guys do? I think we know from the big picture based on this discussion.

Rob (08:35):

Yeah, for sure, and it’s interesting when you look at the timeline of where I was to where I am, and so got my start at Intrawest and then moved to Toronto from Montreal. My hometown and Toronto is my new adopted hometown where I’ve made a life and worked in some very conventional developments, more traditional power center, strip center type environments mixed-use was then only coming onto the scene in the early two-thousands, but no one really understood it. And quite honestly, I wasn’t super inspired by doing power centers and big-box retail, but it taught me a lot, taught me a lot about what things are that large scale development requires taught me a lot about sort of the infrastructure and investment requirements, but still locked that sense of place. And I then joined up with some ex Intrawest guys that I had worked with and spent the better part of 11 years as a partner with another firm that I was with working on a lot of these projects around Canada, the United States, and Europe, and the Caribbean, and doing a lot of advisory work.

Rob (09:40):

But, my passion kept going back to say, I want to implement, I want to develop these places. And so the Spanier group started in 2018. And after I had left my former company with the desire to get back to my roots of actually implementing and developing. And so right now the Spanier group is an advisor to many large clients, many big players in Canada, in the United States. But the long-term objective is to be a partner in these projects to be involved in them, not just as an advisor to the development industry, which is fantastic. And I work for governments, I worked for the public sector. I worked for the private sector on trying to really gain a solid understanding for these players on how to implement these places. But really the long-term vision is to be a part of those projects and to help create those legacies not just for others, but for myself.

Matt (10:29):

So that’s a big, big undertaking. You guys are well on your way though. You guys have some pretty awesome projects on your docket and I guess, can we touch on a couple of your, maybe not favorites, but just some of the bigger projects that you’ve worked on currently?

Rob (10:48):

Sure. And yeah, I’m, I’m truly humbled since starting the Spanier group in 2018, the response, and having the privilege to be involved in these incredible developments. And certainly, one project that is near and dear to my heart is, is Lakeview village, which is located just outside of Toronto, in a municipality called Mississauga, which is its own city in its own, right. It’s one of the largest cities in Canada for those of your listeners that aren’t familiar with it, if they ever flew into Toronto it’s Pearson airport, Pearson’s actually located in Mississauga, but this sites 177 acres on the waterfront of Lake Ontario. It was a former power generating station, coal-burning power generating station that was decommissioned. And I went through a significant process of remediation. And then the city sort of asked, what is, what do we think we’re going to do with this thing?

Rob (11:40):

And put it out to tender and Lakeview Community Partners Limited as a partnership of five great development groups within Ontario that were tasked and, and had the, to win that bid, to go out and develop it in lake view is really going to be one of the greatest waterfront developments, certainly in Canada and possibly in the world. 8,000 residential homes, 200,000 square feet of my kind of retail that best in class independent, non-national 1.8 million square feet of institutional and innovation space, employment space, really the future of work by the water. As well as 67 acres of land that we’re giving back to the city to reconnect the waterfront because the waterfront was so disconnected because of industry and the industrial nature of it. It’s now being reconnected so that you can actually get on a bicycle in Mississauga and ride all the way to Toronto and never have to cross the street, which is incredible.

Rob (12:41):

And beyond that, there is a 70-acre conservation area that’s being built just to our east. There’s a string and series of parks that are to our west, as well as a whole series of parks that we’re building into the development on top of that 67 acres of waterfront. So this is a truly mixed-use development. There’s no single-family housing here. It’s a townhouse, mid-rise higher-order residential for rent, for sale and affordable, and a whole suite of amazing things. And I’ve been involved in that project since your group started. And that’s about one of, I mean, I’m working on projects like Downsview Downsview, which is a former Bombardi parcel of land at the center of Toronto central Toronto. I’m working on a project called Generation Park, which is actually in Houston working with the city of Toronto and waterfront Toronto the former sidewalk labs development application that then went on its way and now it’s being re-tendered.

Rob (13:47):

And so there are groups that are vying for that. I worked directly for waterfront Toronto on that, and then a whole suite of projects with some great developers that are building vertical neighborhoods throughout the greater Toronto area. And some players that are in Vancouver and Montreal and other parts, they’re all over the place seem to be excellent. And I listened to myself talk, it kind of feels like I am, but what? I only focused on mixed, developments that will have a mix of uses. They don’t have to be large scale, but they certainly have to maintain that virtue of place. I’m not the guy you call, if you want to build a subdivision, I’m not the guy who you call. If you want to build an office tower, it has to have a true mix of uses. And I think it’s one of the most misunderstood parts of the puzzle. Everyone knows the term, but how to execute and orchestrate that is, is not entirely the same every time.

Matt (14:41):

Yeah. It’s definitely a lot more than just providing a space for retail. There’s a lot more too, so let’s, shift this. You mentioned a sense of place. Your website mentions placemaking, it’s part of the Lakeview Village description is placemaking and providing it. What, in your own words would you say placemaking really is?

Rob (15:12):

It’s fun. It’s a good question. And I get this, asked this question on a daily basis, not just for people who are interested, but even my own clients, like how big is this a place? How much space do you need to create a place? I think in my mind, placemaking is going to be the next term to replace mixed-use. I think everyone’s using it right now. They’re trying to understand it, how to define it. A mixed-use was a term that 15 years ago was so new to people and then they started using it. And to me, what place means is it’s a confluence of uses. It’s not just real estate, because you can have a whole bunch of place-making examples in the world that are relevant to the people who are thinking about those, whether you’re retooling a waterfront, whether you’re creating a community space, whether you’re just trying to create a great park, those could be places too.

Rob (16:04):

But the way in which I look at placemaking and real estate is the confluence of those uses and how they’re articulated and put together there. , when I mentioned mixed-use, there are so many examples of multi-use. Whereas people put a whole bunch of uses together on a plan, and they seem to think that that plan is mixed-use because it’s got a mix of those uses, but they’re all segregated and disconnected. It’s really the integration and the interconnectivity for me that makes mixed-use. But if you really think about place, if you interconnect and the interplay between those spaces is correct, how do you feel within that space and that place? And that can be the same thing for a condo project. It can be for a residential neighborhood. It can be for a park, it can be for retail. I think people forget the idea of the workplace and how you feel versus place and where you are. And so for me, placemaking is really that understanding and that evocative feeling of the emotion of men. I’m not sure why I feel this way, but it feels really good to be here. And it means hopefully that somewhere along the lines the Lord did this as well when they created the earth or there were places that were just so special

Matt (17:21):

Or is it divine?

Rob (17:23):

Really is, it is a, it is a divine moment when you actually arrive at a place, whether you’re sitting on a patio, whether you’re at the top of a mountain, whether you’re just sitting in a park or sitting with your loved one somewhere and say this was a great moment because placemaking is all about memories. And I keep telling this to my own children. It’s, it’s not about the things it’s about the memories and the moments. And if you can captivate those in real estate that is something that is truly remarkable. And what does it do? It drives the bottom line and the top line, which is whatever asset class you’re focused on. If you do a little bit better of a job, thinking about the place you’re creating and who you’re creating, those places for your offices will get leased up faster, your condos and your houses will get sold faster, or your apartments will get rented for more money. And again, COVID aside, cause this is just a moment in time. I truly believe that place-making is here to stay.

Matt (18:22):

Yeah, no, those that are great. I mean, there’s definitely a premium associated with that feeling, and that premium can kinda overlap with that’s increased rents, decreased vacancies, increased spending. I mean the list goes on, and I’m sure you got a lot of that from your initial foray into real estate, like you said, with your initial job right out of college, when you, when you’re starting to, it’s really about curation to make a person when they’re coming to your site, your village needs to feel a certain way based on what you’ve provided. And I think that’s really interesting how you kind of described it. And I think that’s something that is tough for most, to really quantify because you can’t quantify it.

Rob (19:27):

Well, and that’s, that’s the greatest point is the quantification, because most people are so talented in their own, right? In their own subject matter expertise. And when it comes to development, it’s like, well, why would I bother doing this? And what I’ve started to uncover in my work and the research that I continue to do and stay in your group is that it’s no longer becoming an option. It’s becoming an obligation because the competitiveness in the industry is so strong. And if you’re not thinking about what makes you different and special, you’re going to get lost out. Like I’m working on so many projects in Canada and the greater Toronto area, which is larger than Chicago land right now. And everyone’s doing large-scale mixed-use, right? And so I have this one slide that I use when I’m talking to my clients, public sector, the private sector of, “you’re not special.”

Rob (20:20):

And it doesn’t mean that you’re not special. It just means if you don’t think about what makes you special, you’re going to be in real trouble because anybody can go anywhere to do anything today and the world. When I grew up when you wanted to research going on vacation, you used to go buy a book at the store. My kids that are, eight and 11 can go on the internet and travel the world to see everything. And so the competitiveness or the hyper-competitiveness for experience and knowledge is remarkable. So when you’re actually planning these projects, it may be great. Then you can build condos and there may be a huge demand for it, but what else have you got? Because people are going to be researching and deciding if they choose to buy that human shelf versus this shelf. And if they don’t get that feeling of that, they choose to live there. People aren’t just living in a location today because it’s close to work, people are doing, I mean, if COVID has taught us anything is we can work from anywhere. So it’s really important that you start to think about what are those value propositions that make places great. And then placemaking, can’t work in every instance. But I think that every practice can think a little bit more about how to create a place to make it, to make it remarkable.

Matt (21:36):

Right, right. At least think about a place. I mean, put that thought in, because you’re right. I mean, it’s, it’s so competitive right now that anybody can live anywhere and do anything from anywhere that the options are unlimited. And so it makes, it makes it tough for people that are trying to differentiate themselves. It makes it that much harder.

Rob (22:10):

Well, I’ll tell you, one more point before we get off this. Cause I think it reminds me of my college days. Sociology always fascinated me because of human behavior and how people move through spaces and places. And if you really think about it, placemaking is really all about sociology because when you’re in the outdoors and it’s really hot out, whereas the shape, or if you’re up in, in my part of the world, in Canada where it gets a little cold, how are you going to warm up more? When you’re at the beach where are you going to be hanging out? So you can get that best view and human behavior always tells you something about how people choose to live, how they choose to orient themselves. And I think that if there was even more human behavior thought through on these places, they’ll become places or these developments, I should say, they’ll become places. So human behavior to development will create place.

Matt (23:03):

Right. It becomes your compass almost. Right. So let’s, let’s peel this back and discuss kind of your workflow as you maybe get this initial development. I know Lakeview Village is a monster. But, just for a general project, what does your workflow look like as you begin to dive into this project with, with your clients, or with the development team?

Rob (23:34):

And again, I love talking about Lakeview because it’s just so near and dear to my heart and I truly, I believe it’s great. And there’s so many other clients and projects I’m working on that are at the same Downsview is the same scale caliber bogey, which is a ski hill just outside of Ottawa in Canada, that actually sits on a lake, which is remarkable because I’ve never come across something like that in my career where you actually have a ski hill or you can take off your ski boots and then go jump in the lake if you wanted to within minutes, it’s incredible. But the workflow really starts with the first principle of, okay, w what exactly are we trying to do? And a lot of people use the term, what is the vision? And it always gets lost on people because vision is such an aspirational term, and it can mean so many things, but it really has to do with, okay, where is the project?

Rob (24:23):

What is this project about? What are the objectives of the project, and how are we actually going to create something that is of interest to the people who are going to spend time and money here, your end-users. And so it starts with that, that idea, which most people call a vision that translates, translates itself into a plan. And so master planning is a big part of development in place-making. And a lot of people use that term quite liberally. It can be a large plan, a smaller plan, but I work very closely with some of the greatest master planners and architects in the world to help shape and frame the environment. And I don’t pretend to be a master planner myself. I’ve just had the privilege and the benefit of working with some of the best. And so I’m always looking from my lens that, that ground floor 50 feet up and how everything aligns towards it, because, one of the greatest mistakes is trying to spread out a place or retail in this context too much, or not connecting that retail place to the public space.

Rob (25:21):

And so it’s really about understanding how people move in a series of places, but it starts with that plan. And then with a plan can come to a program, which is a lot of the time that I spend time curating those spaces, those commercial spaces, retail spaces, innovation spaces, as to what they are and how they can work. So that ultimately, as you’re unearthing the plan, you can actually come together with an environment that starts to make sense. And then I spent a lot of time on what I would call the approvals and entitlement side. And I would have said to you 10 or 15 years ago, that there’s a lawyer or an attorney in America that handles that, or a planner in Canada that deals with that. And it’s, the world has changed so much. It takes all kinds. And it really is a team effort to get those projects over the finish line.

Rob (26:06):

And so I spent a fair bit of my time on the approval side, helping to convey the message and describe the outcome of what we’re doing alongside the planners and the attorneys and the architects all the while, making sure that I’m dialing in that program of uses. And so, getting down to the square foot detail of the patio of the restaurant of the retail shop of the location of that hotel, and then ultimately spending a fair bit of time also on some of these larger projects at a higher level of government, because these projects are so large that they sometimes require state and federal level support. And so it’s not just about the call it the state or the city. It sometimes is the country that starting to take notice of these projects. So I spent a fair bit of time at that level, certainly in Canada, looking, at those opportunities as well. Which is fantastic on these projects that are legacy projects, like a Lakeview or others that’ll be once in a lifetime opportunity because it forces the lens to look not just at the private sector and what you’re delivering, but what is the longer-term objectives and public sector.

Matt (27:19):

Yeah, it sounds like you’ve had a couple once in a lifetime projects, which is great.

Rob (27:25):

No, it’s funny, a lot of people when I interview them and you think about joining the Spanier group, or I talk to people, they, most people don’t really believe that I’ve had the opportunity to do what I do. And I constantly remind myself how lucky I am to have been involved in legacy projects, projects that have a lasting memory on people’s lives. And, and again, I was so blessed and humbled to have that first opportunity to work at Intrawest and then continuing my career, working with some incredible cities and governments and projects. And my former company, I had the privilege to work with the Presidio Trust which is the second most valuable land trust in the United States. Second, only to a central park in New York. And these projects are so monumental. And did you just had a hand or the privilege to work with some of these people in these places is amazing.

Rob (28:21):

But what I really want to make sure that I do in my career not just for business, but for legacy in life is to make sure that I’ve left the places that I’ve tried to help create in a better position for people, for generations to come. Because I really believe that mixed-use development placemaking is really about a bigger, it’s a taller order than just creating a cool place. It’s about thinking about the way in which cities and towns were built thousands of years ago and how they were oriented. And, everything is so fast today the quick shot, get it done. The power center of the strip center build quick, close, quick apps. And technology is moving at lightning speed, these places, and these decisions you make will last a lifetime. So, I’m very thoughtful in terms of the work that I get involved in. And I’m hopeful that, that, that some of the help that I’m doing will help others not just to learn, but hopefully it sets the course for that city or that community or that place for generations.

Matt (29:28):

That’s, that’s no that’s a small order. I mean it is tough right now because I, I do agree that there isn’t much thought that’s put in other than, a market study to make sure you have the fundamentals there, but, above that, there’s really not much that goes on in the way of curating or even thinking about human interaction in future developments. I mean, it’s, Hey, can we get our return on this? And I agree that there’s much more to it than that.

Rob (30:13):

And it’s interesting. I was, I was with a former colleague who gave me probably one of the greatest compliments I’ve had in a long time, if not forever, which said, “I was looking at that said project, and you could see that Rob Spanier’s fingers were all over it.” And, she was talking about all of the things that are coming to pass in that project. And to me, it’s not about Rob Spanier, it’s not about the Spanier Group. It’s about creating these places. And if I actually have had the ability to advance that, that ball or move that needle just a little bit, that people all feel a little bit better about where they are and how they live, then I’ve done my part.

Matt (30:54):

Awesome. Well, what, when you’re, when you are creating these, these places, what is, we’ll just nail it down to one, if you can, what is your top kind of strategy for, for achieving these, these places in your developments? That you’re a part of?

Rob (31:15):

It’s a great question and not an easy one. No, but if I think about it, if I think about that one central moment where it happens every time in every project, and I love keeping that piece of paper or that note in projects that are now developed, where we had that one moment, the moment always comes when you’re really about to get into it. There are people who have written books about this, not stories, but actual studies on and called the blank page, where there is nothing there and you’ve created something and that something doesn’t just come out of ideas, it comes from the identification of what it is you’re going to create, where it is. Sometimes that’s very physical in terms of the topography and nature. Sometimes it’s very cultural in terms of the area of the identity of the community, but there’s always that moment where you’re, you’re about to get started or you’re in it.

Rob (32:13):

And, and there’s that spark that makes you realize where you’re going and what you’re doing, because, and I tell this to people every day, they say, well, you curate retail. What’s the difference between this coffee shop and that coffee shop. And there’s nothing, people like coffee and that’s, that’s okay. But it’s the environment that you’re creating that is so different. It’s not the program and the mix that may be dramatically different, but some cultures like certain things and others like others in cities and states are different, but it’s that one moment where you identify or see that this is that view corridor. There is that moment. This is that location that’s going to drive itself. And, projects like I’m working on one project in Canada where it may be really exciting because most people looked at it from the perspective of people come here to enjoy outdoor recreation.

Rob (33:05):

But what is the spark for me was, turning the screen and around and saying, wow, we’re looking at a six-kilometer, four-mile lake. And that view is something like what I had seen when I had traveled throughout Europe on the coast of Italy. And so it’s sometimes just that turning that dial a little bit because so many times people are so driven to hit the target and they’re moving forward and they may hit their target, but they have may have hit the completely wrong target. And if they just turn that dial a little bit, they would’ve seen the real opportunity. And so I think that that for me, is, is the moment of identification or realization of what that place can be. Versus we’ve got a project, we got to develop it, it’s gotta be dense. It’s going to have some of this product mix go for it. It’s understanding what that place was really destined to become versus what it is that you need to do.

Matt (34:00):

So can I, I’m going to try to say it a different way, but essentially being perceptive to maybe all of the opportunities for the project, instead of just picking the first one or the easiest one just having that awareness that, that there are other avenues for, for something and realizing those avenues. I think it sounds like it’s almost an awareness is, does that, does that somewhat?

Rob (34:41):

Yeah, I think, I think it is. I think what it is, is the word I like to use is openness. And I like that awareness as well. I think it’s, it’s smart and it’s, it’s a very well sort of a great way to put it. I think that, and again, because this is a podcast and we’re talking, it’s going to be like, wow, this guy talks a lot and I do, I can talk, but I listen really carefully. And when you’re working on these projects, there’s, there’s a point in time where you need to talk, but right at the beginning, you need to really listen. And I don’t just mean listen to what’s being said, but you gotta really read what’s happening. And if you’re very good at that, it really becomes clear. And sometimes, and it just happens that way. I’ve worked on developments where you’re looking at the development and you’re like, but the transits over there, why did you build over here?

Rob (35:30):

And it just, no one was listening. They weren’t really being that perceptive. And so I would say awareness perception, but just being a really, really good listener because it doesn’t matter where I’ve had the privilege of working. A lot of the time the questions are well, you’re from here or there, you don’t know what we know. You’re not from here. It’s not about being from here or there. It’s about just really understanding based on the experiences that I’ve had and then listening to what it is that people are trying to say and trying to marry those two things together.

Matt (36:03):

Yeah. That’s, that’s big. I mean, it’s, it’s so tough to be on the development side because not tough for the developer. I’m just saying to listen to all the input that could really take your development to the next level. When we look at a project or a potential project, there’s always the developer’s vision. And fairly often that doesn’t necessarily match the vision of the people that are in the area that would actually integrate with that, that development. I mean, a lot of times that initial spark for the development comes from their own thoughts. And so once you have that in your mind, it’s hard to listen to others.

Rob (37:08):

Yeah. I mean, you’re painting that picture of probably what, 85 to 90% of the development industry deals with, because you’ve got some really smart, talented, and very well-capitalized individuals. And sometimes those people are reporting up to other people, in the pension fund and the investment sector, but ultimately speaking. And I say this to many people, clients, cities,  you’re not wrong. And I may not be right, but at the end of the day, the question that’s on the table is how do we make this the best outcome for all of the key stakeholders, whether it’s on a community level, whether it’s on an investment level, whether it’s on a place level, sometimes just putting in a little more of that effort is what makes sense. And I would tell you, 20 years ago, no one really cared that much about this conversation.

Rob (38:01):

There were a couple of players, Disney was the leader in place-making, I’d say that Intrawest was a leader at its time and resort development. And certainly, there, there are companies in the United States that have taken great strides like the Cordish company and some other players to do some great things of a certain sector of a certain time of a certain vintage because Disney isn’t for everyone nor is LA Life which is okay. But getting that essence of place or that development perspective, that’s going to drive the ROI to whatever your investment is or your asset is, is the, is the objective. So you’ll not sort of find me involved in projects, espousing the virtues of place that don’t have any return on investment. I’m just not interested in that. I believe in place. I believe that not every, every, there can’t be a, there-there-everywhere.

Rob (38:55):

It doesn’t work. It’s kinda like, and I love this thing. If you’ve ever grown up as a kid, I used to watch the Flintstones. And when you’re watching Fred and Barney drive to work, you would see house tree dinosaur. They’re like, oh, that’s cool. But if you really look carefully, it just keeps her feeding the back screen in the back screen, in the back screen, because they needed a background. And most people don’t look at it, not detail. Well, the reality is if you tried to create it, there they’re everywhere. It would be like Las Vegas on steroids. And that’s not the objective you need to sort of really, you got to sort of make your call and take your shot in the right ways. And it doesn’t mean that every, every project can’t have some semblance of place, but if everyone tries to compete with one another, there’ll be like it’ll fry the system.

Matt (39:40):

That’s funny. I’ve never paid that much attention to the Flintstones.

Rob (39:47):

Yeah.

Matt (39:48):

So, so let’s, let’s think about this a little bit more on, you mentioned mixed-use has been kind of, that was a buzzword for a while. Placemaking’s kind of been a buzzword for a little while now, but a little newer, but are there any common myths that come along with those words and the curation of developments in this mixed-use since that, that you see come up a lot and, and how would you, how would you debunk those myths? Or how would you address those myths?

Rob (40:29):

I think the greatest myth of mixed-use is that it’s a catch-all solve-all for everyone. And so the minute you use that term, the city is going to say, oh, fantastic, that’ll be a great project. Or the developer says, I’ve got the term, I’m going to get it going. But the issue is, is that not every place can be mixed-use. And the outcome of those projects may have a lot of vacancies, may have a lot of dormant retail may have a space that’s provided that doesn’t actually integrate really well. So just because you use that term, doesn’t mean it’s relevant or applicable in every situation. And I think the myth right now placemaking is it’s not yet in the mainstream of real estate. I think it’s in the mainstream of creative spaces in places. So people use it in the arts and culture states.

Rob (41:15):

And every time I used to hear it in the early days, I’m like, well, why aren’t you guys using it? Like, we’re, we’re, we’re creating places in real estate, but it’s, it’s not yet mainstream enough. And so when developers, traditional developers hear it, they’re like, it’s not quite there yet. It’s sorta like the same way when I try to describe a place that has active uses, you use the term retail, but there’s retail, then restaurants and services, then civic and cultural, then institutional, then public domain. And when you use the term commercial, it’s like, oh, that’s office. So I think that we sometimes get too focused on the term without understanding the outcome. And so for me, it’s going to be really interesting. One day when place-making is sort of the adopted mainstream term to replace makes use, and I’ll be old news, which will be great because that means that I’ve accomplished one of my goals, which is helping to get the word out so that if everybody can actually make it happen, we will have a better overall world.

Rob (42:12):

We’ll have better developments, have better cities, spend your group, can’t work on everything. And that’s not the objective of the Spanier group. But if I can help sort of solving that issue of debunking that myth people will say, oh, this makes good business sense. And it’s actually one of the reasons why I started writing a book that I’m hoping to have come out at the end of this year, called the rhythm of retail a bit. It’s a bit of a lifelong pursuit that I’ve been working through, which, as I said, you can’t work on everything, but I’ve learned so many things throughout my career and I have more to learn, but if I can just share that with people about how the world operates and the reason why I called it, the rhythm of retail is because there’s a real rhythm and a feeling that you get when you’re in a place.

Rob (42:57):

And if you can start to understand what those elements are, and the book is more, it’s not a, not a how-to book, and it’s not about designing spaces and parameters. It’s about the feeling and the emotion you get when you’re in these places. I could have easily called it the, the, the, the placemaking experience or something like that. But the rhythm of retail sort of reminds me of growing up in Montreal and that feeling you would get when you’re in a neighborhood or you’re in a city and you just say, wow, just sort of the rhythm feels really good here. And so I’m hoping that I can spend more time focusing on book writing and less time working on projects to get it done.

Matt (43:34):

Yeah. That’s a big undertaking. Well, we’ll definitely have to get back on here after you get that published and we might have to do a little deep dive into the book. I’d be interested in getting a hold of that.

Rob (43:47):

You got it. We’re halfway, halfway more than halfway there. We’re getting there.

Matt (43:53):

Good, good. Congratulations.

Rob (43:55):

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Matt (43:57):

So, retail has been a hot button issue in recent history. You see the headlines, death of retail and retail apocalypse, and all these, these great, great buzzwords where they just tie in retail to everything that sounds like destruction. It, I guess what you are proposing in your developments would that, that you’re a part of, is not, it’s almost immune from what we’ve seen as far as the big box goes and kind of what, what we’re seeing with vacant, the anchor stores with the retail strip centers and whatnot. What you guys are proposing is more of local non-big box, but I guess how does that, how does that make you, or how do you feel like that gives you immunity from some of them, the items that have really struck retail currently with, with just,  with more web users, more online shopping, and I, I think I know the answer, cause it probably ties back into our full discussion here, but do you wanna speak on, on that for a while?

Rob (45:39):

Sure. Yeah. And what, no one is immune to economic downturns and to pandemics and the rest of it. And when it gets to retail, which is a very, very complicated science, they’re even less immune to it. But if you’re bad at what you do, you are going to be the first to fall. And so my opinion of retail hasn’t changed over the last 20 years. And if you watch trends and you watch how things are going, there’s nothing wrong with big boxes and large-scale format retail. The certain instances when you’re a new parent and you need to get diapers, it’s great to say that everything’s going to go online, but at midnight, when your child needs some medication, you got to get to that pharmacy and online can’t necessarily solve that problem. So bricks and mortar versus omnichannel, there’s a balance.

Rob (46:30):

But what I found is that retail and retailers that don’t evolve will die. And you saw this on the large scale with Walmart and even whole foods buying Omnichannel and making investments in their digital. And my hat goes off to them. I’m not opposed to the large-scale big boxes. I think that there’s a place for it, but when you’re creating places, they’re not necessarily the greatest use because they take up so much space. And if there is never an issue and they disappear, the hole will be, so the void will be so enormous in that development that it will have such impact. And you’ve seen this with Walmarts across the United States and start on one side of town and move to the other side of town as development evolves. And then that box doesn’t have a second purpose or a second life and small retailers.

Rob (47:18):

I love the mom and pops in the independence, but if they don’t stay up to snuff, you can see that many of them didn’t make it through COVID. But the ones that understood the digital platform, the pivoting, and becoming a marketplace versus just a retail hard goods seller, really recognized how to pivot and change. And so, for Lakeview, as an example, I got interviewed by shopping centers today. And one of the questions was, well, how have you dealt with COVID in light of the development that is coming to pass and where things are going now. And I said, I haven’t changed my strategy once, and I’m not actually changing my square footage on any of my retailers, because I believe in a smaller retail footprint with larger general generous outdoor public space selling space. So if you have a restaurant don’t make it 6,000 square feet with a thousand-foot patio, make it 2,500 square feet with a 3000 value.

Rob (48:11):

And again, the math doesn’t have to equal out. But the reality is, is in moments of the downturn, in moments of economic challenge or pandemic, when you were forced to shut your doors, having free selling space is going to allow for you to be more successful as a retailer and as a developer or as a landlord. The one thing that you want is for your retailers to be successful so they can pay rent, but the larger you are, the more challenged you may become if you’re not set up digitally or otherwise, or if the market’s forced to shut down, like in the COVID moment. And so then you’re, you’re, you’re snookered. So for me, I mean you’re not surprised by the answer, but it’s really about understanding the demand, understanding the use case and the size, but more importantly, stop overbuilding, stop building too much, stop building too much retail. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Matt (49:06):

I love snookered it’s definitely a technical term, by the way.

Rob (49:10):

Yes. Heavily in the planning and approvals terminology or if you like to play pool.

Matt (49:18):

So this is probably not a question that you want to spend too much time on, but what keeps you up at night in your current role? I’ve always been interested to hear what, what things are on top of mind.

Rob (49:38):

I’ll get I’ll give you a good example because there are many things that keep me up at night. But for work, you’re, there are jobs, there are careers, and then there are callings. And I feel like the work that I do is more of a calling. It’s certainly a career, but it is not a job that I tell anybody who works with me or who wants to work with me, that if you’re looking for a nine to five, it’s not about the hours, it’s about the sort of the passion and the commitment. And I don’t turn it off cause I’m learning all the time. But I think that what keeps me up at night is asking the question, what did I miss? What was it that I could have done better? And so this past Sunday night I was at a meeting at nine o’clock at night until one in the morning on a project that we’re moving forward on with the master planner.

Rob (50:24):

And we’re looking through this plan and we’re about to have a big meeting and there’s this one area on the plan that makes up maybe an acre of the land. And it was just wrong. I could feel it, I could see it. It was just the wrong product residentially. And I’m like, we got to change it. And he was like, we’re too late in the game. We’re going forward. And I said to him, this is the difference between success and failure and while no one else other than you. And I may ever notice it, I’m going to know it and we got to change it. And so I think it’s, it’s really in this game, as big as these projects are, it’s a game of inches. And I think it’s the, it’s the inches that keep me up at night,

Matt (51:01):

Get the details. Right.

Rob (51:04):

It’s all about the details.

Matt (51:07):

So looking forward, so say we were going to Google. Wikipedia might not make it in a hundred years or always ask them for money. But if we were to Google your name or Spanier group, the feature, what is, what is the legacy? I mean, we’ve touched on it, but kind of it in a one-sentence kind of buzzword, what would that be? Well, I mean,

Rob (51:37):

First and foremost, and I say this to all, anybody I work with, family first and always, so husband, a loving husband, hopefully, father proud father. And I’d probably say, Placemaker would be a good term that I like to use. My dad was a surgeon and he saved so many lives and was so incredible in the healthcare space. And he really thought about how to do what he did. , he was the greatest chess player that saved so many lives. Cause you can’t think about the moment that you’re in. You got to think about three steps ahead. And I think that in today’s day and age, if, if I could be remembered as being able to think in that same way to create these places, it wasn’t about the thing you were doing right now. It’s the impact that’ll have long-term down the road. I think that would be a really, I would be humbled. Obviously, I won’t be around to read about it, but hopefully, I will have helped change the game, not just for today, but, for generations to come.

Matt (52:39):

Oh yeah. That’s always a tough question for people because, you don’t want to think about it, but at the same time it’s in the back of your mind.

Rob (52:49):

Yeah. You can also pay someone to change that Wikipedia page for sure. But yeah, listen, I mean, at the end of the day it’s, we’re, we’re, we’re not dealing in commodities here. It’s not a commodity game you’re dealing in legacy and every project I work on and it’s, I think if I thought about it for too long and too much, you’d probably the pressure would, it does get to others. You’d probably get to me, but it’s really about what’s the long-term objective here to marry up with the short-term needs and objectives of the people at that time, the client, the investor. And it’s, if you can actually think long and short, you’re really going to have a lot of fun in this industry and in this space. But if all you’re doing is thinking about short-term outcomes, you’re just going to be revising whatever you’ve done and five, 10, or 15 years. But the cool thing is if you could actually build something that was built to last, I mean that’s pretty special.

Matt (53:45):

Right, right. True, true. Placemaking is timeless. Absolutely. So Rob, I really appreciate your time. I don’t want to take up too much more time, but if you could give everybody online and listening in an idea of where they can find out more about you also Spanier group and then if you have any insights into your book coming up and he launches that you’d like to tell us about and

Rob (54:14):

Sure. If you want to find me, just go to spend your Google.com, that’s probably the best place to get me and easy to contact me there. The book there’s a little excerpt on the book that is on the website and you can sign up for a copy when it comes out, but I’m pretty easily easy to reach. And so for those that know me and those that don’t, I’m a pretty easy guy to get in touch with. And I’m not a big fan of speaking to someone to speak to someone. If you’ve got a question, if you got some thoughts, reach out to me, email me email everything’s on the website, and don’t hesitate to reach out to me. I love helping. Certainly, there are only so many projects I can work on and which is the tough part, but, but one of the things I’ve always prided myself on is helping others. Cause I believe it’s an important thing to do in our industry. I love helping next-generation players, helping them find new opportunities, helping guide people on their path. It’s a marathon, not a sprint and, and I really believe that. And so whatever I can do to help the industry I feel is, has helped me a hundred times over.

Matt (55:22):

Awesome. Thanks, Rob, do you have any parting words of advice for anybody right now?

Rob (55:28):

No, I mean, I think we left it all out there as they say on the airwaves but thank you. Thanks for the opportunity for catching up. This is a great chat.

Matt (55:38):

Awesome. Thanks, Rob. Have a great day too!